bill clinton, jimmy carter. it wasn't a disaster. and the amount is there but there's flexibility in each department to cut it in a safe and responsible manner. >> let me go back to general mccaffrey because i don't want to lose him. a lot of people say the defense department is being very political on this, for example, saying that the aircraft carriers and all the associated ship movements for the "harry s. truman" and the "abraham lincoln," they could go to the persian gulf and to come out and say they can't go to the persian gulf is what they call -- what is it? gold watching. gold watches? is that the term? that's the military side to shutting down the washington monument. i mean, there are things that can be done. and if you hear some of the generals who i admire enormously but not necessarily financially, they say nothing can be done. that's not the case. >> larry, look. chief of staff of the army is not running for public office. we can't promote him again. he says he may have to cut up to 80% of the discretionary training bu